Here's a selection of messages from a discussion in November 2006, demonstrating that Inger shows no sign of mellowing over the years. Far from it...|
|Subject: "Vinland on map from 1480"|
From Inger, 13 Nov:
"1480 Map by Hans Rust of Augsburg shows "Vinland" as an European colony to the far northwest. Thousands of copies of this map were printed assuring that most European merchants were aware of the existence of the old Nordic colony. "
Source: Gunnar Thompson, Ph.D.
(Oh I know that some here doesn't like or believe in him. BUT in this case he is right. See below.)
Hanns Rüst's map
Who like to remind you all of the joint Royal Portugesean-Danish sailings to Greenland and NA in 1480's.
ALAN, 13 Nov:|
I need help here. I can't find Vinland on the map. Where is it marked?
Can you please tell us where to look? Where is it in relation to "Engeland" and "Friessen"?
INGER, 13 Nov:|
Alan explaining in English how one reads a circular map isn't easy. I will try my best but before I do I will look for some alike maps where this type of problem have been discussed and write a short Swedish intro to it. (Talked to Terry and he didn't seem to have your problem thus I guess it's related to how many such maps one have studied over the years.) There are some other information that relates to this map which give two essential information due to who carthographed the map, and also by that confirming (!) two Papal letters. Which in itself is interesting.
At present I suggest you to take the image itself and look closer at it in a image-program. Guess you will have found it within an hour.
[i.e., Inger did not, for some reason, use the superb high resolution zoom facility offered by the Morgan Library website]
ALAN, 13 Nov:|
I have studied the image close up and can't find anything that looks like Vinland.
I am surprised and rather disappointed that you can't tell me where to look for Vinland on this map. Why do you have to look at other maps? Surely you have studied this one yourself and know where Vinland is marked? If it is too difficult for you to explain in English, please write in Swedish and I will translate for everyone else. As I said, England is easy to find. Where is Vinland in relation to it? Left? Right? Above? Below? That should not be so hard. If you can't do it, please ask Terry to tell us where to look.
INGER, 13 Nov:|
circular maps aren't that easily read. First mail sent with a question to you. I have been working with writing instructions of how to read such maps and also info regarding the map in question. I am off computer for an hour.
ALAN, 13 Nov:|
You are making this more difficult than it really is. I am not asking you to read the map, since you have already done so, otherwise you would not have told us that Vinland is marked on it.
So all you have to do is to pass on what you know to people like me who are less knowledgeable. If you know where Vinland is marked on the map you can easily tell us, using words. Use the clock system, for example, and you can say that a place is at seven o'clock. You can then specify that it is close to the centre of the circle or close to the edge. You can also say that it is beside something else that is easy to see on the map, or you can say that it is between two other places that are easily recognizable.
[No direct reply from Inger, though she did send several messages to semi-relevant sub-threads about topics such as Gavin mejrpun-7 Menzies, leading to the following, almost exactly 24 hours after Alan's message:]
"BOGART", 14 Nov (under new heading "Reality Check"):|
Too much to hope for evidence, I guess on this OT, severely cross-posted thread.
BUT... has *anyone* actually seen anything on a representation of this map that would justify further blah-blah?
The word 'vinland'? where? something else? Or are we now taking it as a 'given' that vinland must be there, somewhere, because somebody said it is?
INGER, 14 Nov:|
That some must have seen it is obvious. the map in it self been discussed in articles in the past.
The Relation between the Circular Maps of Hans Rust and Hans Sporer
Imago Mundi, Vol. 18, 1964 (1964), p. 81
Rust's and Sporer's World Maps
Imago Mundi, Vol. 7, 1950 (1950), pp. 32-36
But however interesting those articles, and others, are for discussions re. this and that, the important fact to be remembered here is that Hanns/Hans Rüst made three versions and the one from 1477 is linked to one voyage he participated together with Pothurst and Pinning on behalf of the Danish and the Portugesean Kings......
[Sooner or later, I may waste a few minutes checking those references in the university library; my guess is that they won't say quite what Inger wants them to say]
"BOGART", 14 Nov:|
However interesting this all may be to you, it appears that you have not seen the map, nor examined any large reproduction of it. It appears (correct me if I'm wrong) that you are depending entirely upon the statement of a questionable and very secondary (not primary) source.
You seem willing to accept this sort of "information" only when it supports your own pre-conclusions. Why is that?
Wouldn't it be better to do your homework before posting?
Let's put the hypothesis that there is NO written representation of Vinland on this (1480) nor any of the variants of this map.
The hypothesis is easily falsifiable...
DAVID B [i.e. the creator of this web-page; sorry] 14 Nov:|
http://www.trochos.plus.com/primesauce/sources.htm#96 may help a bit. [that page has now moved to http://www.pastpresented.ukart.com/primesauce/sources.htm#96]
ALAN, 14 Nov:|
That seems to be a good candidate for something that could be wilfully misinterpreted as Vinland (albeit in the Black Sea), but I'm not sure about your Wendish theory. I can't do any better, though. That third letter is really strange.
What do you make of the place just below it? The name looks like Agaaa, rather like the famous Castle Aaaaaarrrrrrggghhh known from another medieval source.
[More scholarly discussion followed, with only mildly Pythonic overtones, until Inger replied to my original message:]
INGER, 15 Nov:|
you continue showing ignorance - Alan hasn't a clue as it seems and he hasn't even noted that I did send him direct information for the one in a monestry, which is the only one I had printed not knowing that there were three versions I thought all was the same.
Doesn't matter. Neither you nor Alan are experienced or educated working with maps. That shows. No need discussing anything with you
ALAN, 15 Nov:|
Why do you offer nothing but insults, long accounts of your education and countless excuses for not backing up your claims? Why not share some of your extensive knowledge by telling us the meaning of these place-names on Rüst's map?
INGER, 15 Nov (new heading "Hans Rüst's maps articles - reproductions"):|
who had thought that some of those who discuss this had managed to find at least this url.
HAMZA, 15 Nov:|
Can you explain in more detail? I don't understand what you mean.
INGER, 15 Nov:|
If you use the url you will find a list not only a bibliographic one but a listindex for works where the maps been discussed. Not knowing who you are, I know to many others here who a ready to form an opinion without looking for what's written before. At the same time always asking for quotes taken out of their content.
|[Technically speaking, she makes a valid point there, although "quotes taken out of their content" are at the heart of nearly all real academic discussion- and remember, all she actually had to do was tell us where Vinland appeared on the Rüst map]|